Extending the GIVfarm (again)

Rewards
7

Univ3 contracts are not deployed on gnosis chain based on my knowledge. Nevertheless, the uniswap v3 staking has a characteristic of rewarding only in range liquidity which made us terminate ours univ3 staking program on mainnet

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8

+1 to what Amin said…

Univ3 is a degen’s game… rewards go disproportionately to those who are focused on managing positions often with focused effort. Univ2-esque systems are just more fair to broadly reward liquidity proportionately to the amount provided.

We learned that already, no need to dive down that rabbit hole again. Univ3 liquidity via the angel vault seems much more attractive. For the rest of the GIVfarm, let’s keep it simple.

3 Likes
9

Okay to recap and get some consensus:

We make a 2 months extension to the GIVfarm, retiring the GIV/HNY farm in favour of a GIV/xDAI farm. With a possible additonal 2 months that can be added, we will asses the situation around end of July 2022 and see if we need another extension.

GIV per week = 600k (flat distribution)
Number of weeks = 8 (with a possible 8 week extension)
Total GIV distributed = 4.8 Milion (9.6 Million with extension)

Farm Distributuion:

Farm % Allocated GIV Per Week
GIV/DAI Uniswap V2 on Mainnet 15% 90000
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 20% 120000
GIV Staking on Mainnet 10% 60000
50GIV/xDAI Honeyswap on xDai 20% 120000
50GIV/WETH Sushiswap on xDai 20% 120000
GIVgardens/staking on xDai 15% 90000

Time is of the essence!

WDYT?

  • Looks good!
  • No, I have more changes and/or concerns

0 voters

10

Also I hope we make sure that in the documentation that we mention we might kill the farms at any time. I think we are on a nice run with token swaps for liquidity, and GIVpower could start during that time… so we for sure want to mention that our Governance can turn off the rewards.

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11

Currently the GIVfarm documentation has this footnote:

Note that, as a result of the termination of the Univ3 rewards program in week 13 there is approximately 5M GIV, previously earmarked for these rewards, that are no longer part of the GIVfarm allocation.

Further rounds may be launched after this period that could contain new pools and changes in distribution. All rewards from GIVfarm will be affected by the GIVstream. Read up on the GIVstream documentation for more information.

So are we really extending the round or are we launching a new round?
If

Then it would make sense to launch a new round that is a “maximum of X weeks or may terminate sooner based on Y and Z factors”, for example.

12

I like Lauren’s idea to break down the program. We can set up 4 months, but only advertise one or two months at a time

13

It’s launching a new round for sure. Agree with your suggestion for that footnote.

Perhaps we say… will run for an expected 2 months, option to extend it. possibility of termating early.

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14

Hey everyone, I remember @Cotabe mentioned a few weeks ago that our current GIVfarm rewards will be running out soon. With all of our cool new products I think we lost the thread on this one. FYI…
:rotating_light: Most GIVfarms are set to end on August 19th :rotating_light:

Now is the time to tackle the question of if we are extending GIVfarm rewards for any programs outside of GIVpower and the Angel Vault, which already have their rewards approved for the next 6 months.

The farms currently on the chopping block (when rewards end) are:

  • GIV on Mainnet
  • GIV/ETH on Balancer
  • GIV/WETH on Sushiswap
  • GIV/DAI on Uniswap v2
  • GIV/ xDAI on Honeyswap

Here’s a quick refresher on the parameters from our last extension:

The first GIVfarm Extension happened on June 24th, 2022. The farm was extended a further 8 weeks with an additional 4 Million GIV allocated to farming rewards.

A flat 500,000 GIV is distributed weekly from June 24th until August 19th 2022

Here is a breakdown of the farms, the percentage allocated to each and the flat amount of GIV distributed weekly:

Farm % Allocated GIV Per Week
GIV/DAI Uniswap V2 on Mainnet 23% 115,000
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 15% 75,000
GIV Staking on Mainnet 5% 25,000
50GIV/xDAI Honeyswap on xDai 25% 125,000
50GIV/WETH Sushiswap on xDai 17% 85,000
GIVgardens/staking on xDai 15% 75,000

I do acknowledge that all goods things must come to an end and we can look to the horizon for some initiatives that might be a great boon for our DAO owned liquidity such as:

I would like to propose however a 3 month extension for the following farms:

  • GIV/ETH on Balancer
  • GIV/WETH on Sushiswap

Extending them from August 19th for 12 weeks precisely, taking us to November 11th, 2022 and to distribute a total of 1,680,000 GIV in rewards. I would propose this weekly distribution:

Farm % Allocated GIV Per Week
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 57% 80,000
50GIV/WETH Sushiswap on xDai 43% 60,000
Total Weekly 140,000

I think these ETH farms are a very important incentive to capture the potential upside of ETH and the inevitable growth of crypto and the Ethereum ecosystem. In particular the GIV/ETH Balancer pool will allow liquidity providers in the Angel Vault a place they can directly deposit their GIV on Mainnet that they receive from the rebalancing effects of the program.

Time is of the essence (again)!

WDYT?

  • Looks good!
  • No, I have more changes and/or concerns

0 voters

1 Like
15

I guess this depends on weather the GIVPower contracts are confirmed and ready by the 19th (@karmaticacid mentioned this in the governance call).

If this is not the case, we might consider extending the single asset staking until GIVPower is deployed?

16

Good point! We could, as a safety net allocate 4 weeks of rewards to the GIVgardens staking at current rates which is 75k GIV per week. This comes to 300k GIV and would last until September 16th.

We should also verify that in fact we can pause these rewards once GIVpower is launched. Maybe that’s a question for yourself or @amin ?

1 Like
17

Hey @mitch - thank you so much for pushing this forward, you are our hero in so many ways! I have a few thoughts:

Balancer Mainnet - Can we be a bit more conservative?

We have limited mainnet liquidity for GIV, and while the Angel Vault is great, it is a bit of a challenge in terms of onboarding new users. We should focus on mainnet DAO2DAO liquidity in the next months, but in the meantime, I agree with extending the balancer rewards. Although, I think we can be a little more conservative in the allocation.

We are maintaining around 200% APR for $100k of liquidiity right now on Balancer. So we’re paying about $16k for $100k of liquidity every 4 weeks. That is a lot of money for relatively low liquidity. I think we can get away with decreasing the weekly allocation - say perhaps by 25%… bringing the APR down to about 150% assuming people do not withdraw liquidity.

I don’t think think 200% vs. 150% APR on this pool will create a huge impact on the liquidity added and will save the DAO some GIV.

So I softly propose:

Farm GIV Per Week
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 60,000

Open to counter-arguments.

Sushswap Gnosis Chain - Maybe not?

Your proposal is suggesting to put out about 60,000 GIV/week to maintain Sushiswap liquidity, which at current prices is about $12k every 4 weeks to maintain $126k of extra liquidity w/ WETH.

I just don’t think that it’s really necessary because of our huge liqudity with GNO & their pool with WETH - we could save the extra $36k here by ending this farm, at (imo) no huge disadvantage to the economy.

GIV Staking - An addition

As I mentioned in the governance call, it is unfortunately unlikely that GIVpower staking will be ready to launch before August 19. We are in the process of reviewing the contracts, and it has become apparent that we need more time to ensure they are safe, tested & ready to go. We have allocated 7M GIV for GIVpower for 6 months… and I think we should reserve that until we actually launch it.

Therefore, I would like to additionally propose that we extend 100% GIV staking on Gnosis Chain for a maximum of 8 weeks (likely to terminate earlier with the launch of GIVpower) to ensure that GIVfarmers still have somewhere to part their harvested GIV rewards.

I am suggesting that we terminate mainnet GIV staking and implement our new “bridge your GIV to Gnosis Chain to stake them” user flow, and then people can start getting used to that flow even before GIVpower staking is out (ETA early September).

Since there is over 16M GIV being staked right now on Gnosis Chain, the APRs are relatively low (24% today). If we want to bring people over to gnosis to stake their GIV, and prevent them from dumping their harvested rewards, I think we should up this a little.

Conclusion

I am proposing some adjustment’s to Mitch’s suggestion above, as follows:

Farm GIV Per Week Weeks to Run
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 60,000 12
100% GIV staking on Gnosis Chain 100,000 < 8
Total Weekly 160,000

And I think we should run the Balancer pool for 12 weeks (as originally proposed)… but will not run the GIV staking that long… an absolutely maximum of 8 weeks, to be replaced by GIVpower when it launches. So this would be a maximum total of 1,520,000 in GIV.

Note: I am also curious to know if anyone thinks we should temporarily also extend mainnet GIV staking. We could do 75,000/week for Gnosis staking + 25,000/week for mainnet staking & just stay the course without current allocations.

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18

GIVpower will be an upgrade to our current Gnosis Chain 100% GIV staking contract… it will actually be the same contract, only better. It will be like a transformation of the GIV staking pool into the GIVpower pool (and people won’t even need to unstake / restake their GIV).

So we won’t need to pause the rewards, we will just need to adjust the amount of GIV per week going out. I don’t think this is much of a problem, but will let @amin confirm.

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19

Cool thanks for the nice cost breakdown! I’m down to give a bit less on the Balancer Pool 60k per week is good.

I think we can also end GIV staking on mainnet and direct people to deposit their GIV into the Balancer Pool.

Gnosis Chain

I would point out that in addition to ending the Sushiswap Pool we will also end the GIV/xDAI pool which holds around $64k in xDAI so ending both those farms with no other option besides GIVpower (or just the GIVgarden potentially) puts ~$190k of liquidity potentially on the chopping block.

If we lower weekly emissions of GIV/WETH on Sushiswap to 40k GIV a week that brings our USD value of emissions per 4 weeks to $8k, across a whole 3 month program this equals $24k.

I would also point out there is some external factors, particularly the upcoming merge, which by incentivizing ETH liquidity we could see some of the upside around the current hype.

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20

Praise @mitch and @karmaticacid for such great proposals and well-thought arguments to figure out the continuation of the GIVfarms. I think the interaction is helping find the best solution.

I think these are important considerations…

As well as, how it can be convenient to direct people to single stacking so they are already there once that farm is upgraded to GIVpower.

Maybe we can harness the upside of the Merge while and softening the fall of the liquidity by starting from a 80,000 GIV per week and reduce 10,000 GIV every week. By mid October we could close that farm and the average cost would have been 40k GIV a week for 2 months, this equals $16k.

I am also concerned about ending the GIV stacking farm on mainnet on the first cycles of the Jagged Staircase while a lot of key people are preparing for burning man. So I would support this:

for the next 6 weeks while 2 cycles pass and all the team is in full swing or at least for 2 weeks to have more info on what happened after the rewards dumped.

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21

@mitch As @karmaticacid said GIVpower will be an upgrade to the current 100% GIV staking contract. So every reward we put on will be handed down GIVpower program.

3 Likes
22

We plan to end all these farms eventually anyways. The plan was to end them once we have achieved enough liquidity by other means. We have done that on Gnosis Chain.

It is totally unsustainable to be continually paying out huge amounts of GIV to sustain minor liquidity. If your assumption is that these LPs only hold GIV to get more GIV incentives - and that they will dump it all once the incentives stop - then it’s another reason to stop paying them more GIV. It hurts us more in the long run.

Anyway, I think that there is more of a balance to achieve, and a lot of things we can’t predict. ETH could go up, ETH could go down. Correlating to ETH could have advantages or disadvantages.

We are taking this GIV out of our liquidity multisig (the allocation that is there for liquidtity solutions). Would that GIV be better used in another DAO2DAO token swap? We need to consider the long term vs. the short term here, and I think ending all farms on Gnosis Chain (minus GIV staking → GIVpower) is in our long term best interest.

1 Like
23

I hear you but I think it’s important to preserve the WETH/GIV Sushi pool, albeit at lower rates for a bit longer, it will be a softer fall than ending both the WETH/GIV and GIV/xDAI pools at once. I think the bitDAO proposal (potentially) and the Balancer Public Goods Pool will be a huge boon for DAO owned liquidity,

I would also mention that we did just allocate 6 Million in rewards for the Angel Vault for 6 months and another 7 Million for GIVpower for 6 months. So on one side you want to argue about providing enough rewards to make APRs interesting but then when we’re talking about extending existing farms I hear a completely different argument.

We also neglect to mention that by the benefit of the GIVstream the GIV rewards we pay out are not paid out all at once, but progressively over the next ~4 years, this softens the blow of our GIV emissions.

I like @Cotabe 's idea of starting at 80k and lowering it 10k per week, this would only extend it by 8 weeks instead of 12, and reducing $ value of emissions from $24k to $16k in regards to the GIV/WETH Sushi pool. I got some technical validation from @amin that our Unipool distributor (That gives out our farming rewards) runs in 2 week round so it would be rather a 20k decrease bi-weekly instead of 10k weekly.

I agree that we’ll need some GIV in GIV staking on Gnosis Chain to cover the gap from when it would normally end until we launch GIVpower in it’s place, however…

I’m not sold on keeping mainnet GIV staking around, I think it’s better to direct people to deposit their GIV into the GIV/ETH Balancer Pool. User’s can deposit GIV directly into this pool without having to acquire ETH. The balancer pool automatically rebalances, however it is made up 80% GIV so the rebalancing would have a lowered effect on the GIVeconomy.

So I would propose then, taking all of your suggestions into account:

Farm GIV per Week Weeks to Run Total in GIV
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 60,000 12 720,000
GIV/WETH Sushiswap on Gnosis Chain *40,000 8 320,000
100% GIV Staking on Gnosis Chain 100,000 < 8 **800,000
Total 200,000 12 2,040,000

*This is the average per week, as mentioned we will start at 80k, decreasing by 20k bi-weekly until we reach 0.

**This is the max amount, GIV staking on Gnosis Chain will run only until GIVpower launches, potentially taking as little as 400,000 GIV if we hope to launch by mid September.

JFYI - The total of these programs amounts to about half as much the rewards we allocated from the last GIVfarm extension (excluding Angel Vault and GIVpower), and combined would still distribute less rewards than the Angel Vault or GIVpower over a similar length of time.

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24

Because of concentrated liqudity, the Angel Vault provides much more efficient liquidity than regular farming… essentially way more “bang for our buck” than the current farms. Also, we don’t get have enough DAO-ownded Mainnet liquidity to justify terminating the Mainnet farms yet. (This is why I am supporting extending the Balancer Mainnet pool)

I am arguing to terminate Gnosis Chain farms because:

  1. We have over $1M of DAO-owned GIV liquidity on Gnosis Chain thanks to our token swaps and they are no longer needed to maintain liquidity. Farming is an inefficient way of getting liquidity and was always mean to be a short term solution. It’s is better for Giveth if we take the opportunity asap to evolve out of it.

  2. The extra GIV required to maintain the (imo totally not neccessary) Sushiswap rewards program is taking GIV out of our liquidity multisig that is better kept for achieving a token swap. What if we kept that 320,000 GIV and put it into having needed liqudiity on mainnet, rather than renting extraneous liquidity on gnosis chain.

  3. The extra correlation to ETH that we get via $100k GIV/WETH liquidity on sushiswap (that we are PAYING for) is not necessary when you consider the correlation we already have due to $700k GIV/GNO liquidity that is DAO-owned, considering that GNO has over $2M of liqudity GNO/WETH on Gnosis Chain.

And some opinions:

  1. You want ETH correlation so when it pumps, we pump… and we already have it. It’s important to consider the flipside as well: higher correlation means that when ETH dumps, GIV dumps. We should look to building solutions that add more independent demand for GIV (*cough GIVpower *cough) so our economy stands upon its own merit.

  2. I don’t believe that all users will pull our liqudiity immediately after we turn off the farms, and I especially don’t believe that they will dump all their GIV when they do. I think a lot of our famers also care about Giveth, and are likely to stake in GIVpower or the Angel Vault.

  3. If you want to make the argument that if we stop incentivizing liquidity, a bunch of GIV will be dumped… then it’s more reason to stop pouring more GIV out to liquidity providers.

And regarding GIVpower:

GIVpower is a critical component of the long term Giveth roadmap. It provides new ultility for GIV… you’re not just farming to earn, but you are getting governance power over project curation on Giveth. We’re building win-win relationships between GIV holders & projects… and it’s an important step towards changing the mindset that supporting public goods requires sacrifice. It’s not the end goal yet, but it is a huge milestone and provides a lot more value to Giveth than liqudiity we don’t need anywmore.

Also, we are aiming to achieve attractive APRs for users who lock for up to a year. This really helps to prevent dumps in GIV.

That’s true ofc, but the point still stands that if we allocate this GIV via rewards streams for liquidity we’re renting within the 1st year of the economy… it’s more GIV that we don’t have at our disposal for later opportunities.

…

I think we should extend the farms on an as-needed basis, considering the long term roadmap & health of the economy. My proposal is

Farm GIV per Week Weeks to Run Total in GIV
80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 60,000 12 720,000
100% GIV Staking on Gnosis Chain 100,000 < 8 *400,000 to 800,000
Total *1,120,000 to 1,520,000

*GIV staking on Gnosis Chain will run only until GIVpower launches, likely taking as little as 400,000 GIV if we hope to launch by mid September.

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25

@karmaticacid and I had an after-hours chat and we managed to find a compromise between us.

We proposed to end the GIV/WETH Sushiswap and instead to increase the GIV/ETH Balancer weekly rewards allocation from 60,000 to 75,000 weekly.

In place we would also suggest allowing the ETH farms (Angel Vault and Balancer) to show up on Gnosis Chain and prompt users to bridge their GIV over to mainnet to participate in these farms.

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26

Let’s lock this in! Time is short.

Please vote!
https://snapshot.org/#/giv.eth/proposal/0x6261172ced3883df8339db78c8495d74b74527256f320071e44d059b9c4f9612

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