I love 1hive, but the GIV/HNY pair is not really the best thing to extend… If we extend the farms, I would propose we swap GIV/HNY for GIV/xDai
+1 on the extension, and on adding GIV/xDAI yesss please - this will make buying GIV on Gnosis Chain more effective I think, based on the feedback I receive from people trying to buy it for farming.
Though we probably need to be gentle on that to not impact HNY adversely?
voting ends May 13th, is this worth to consider?
Univ3 contracts are not deployed on gnosis chain based on my knowledge. Nevertheless, the uniswap v3 staking has a characteristic of rewarding only in range liquidity which made us terminate ours univ3 staking program on mainnet
+1 to what Amin said…
Univ3 is a degen’s game… rewards go disproportionately to those who are focused on managing positions often with focused effort. Univ2-esque systems are just more fair to broadly reward liquidity proportionately to the amount provided.
We learned that already, no need to dive down that rabbit hole again. Univ3 liquidity via the angel vault seems much more attractive. For the rest of the GIVfarm, let’s keep it simple.
Okay to recap and get some consensus:
We make a 2 months extension to the GIVfarm, retiring the GIV/HNY farm in favour of a GIV/xDAI farm. With a possible additonal 2 months that can be added, we will asses the situation around end of July 2022 and see if we need another extension.
GIV per week = 600k (flat distribution)
Number of weeks = 8 (with a possible 8 week extension)
Total GIV distributed = 4.8 Milion (9.6 Million with extension)
|Farm||% Allocated||GIV Per Week|
|GIV/DAI Uniswap V2 on Mainnet||15%||90000|
|80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet||20%||120000|
|GIV Staking on Mainnet||10%||60000|
|50GIV/xDAI Honeyswap on xDai||20%||120000|
|50GIV/WETH Sushiswap on xDai||20%||120000|
|GIVgardens/staking on xDai||15%||90000|
Time is of the essence!
- Looks good!
- No, I have more changes and/or concerns
Also I hope we make sure that in the documentation that we mention we might kill the farms at any time. I think we are on a nice run with token swaps for liquidity, and GIVpower could start during that time… so we for sure want to mention that our Governance can turn off the rewards.
Currently the GIVfarm documentation has this footnote:
Note that, as a result of the termination of the Univ3 rewards program in week 13 there is approximately 5M GIV, previously earmarked for these rewards, that are no longer part of the GIVfarm allocation.
Further rounds may be launched after this period that could contain new pools and changes in distribution. All rewards from GIVfarm will be affected by the GIVstream. Read up on the GIVstream documentation for more information.
So are we really extending the round or are we launching a new round?
Then it would make sense to launch a new round that is a “maximum of X weeks or may terminate sooner based on Y and Z factors”, for example.
I like Lauren’s idea to break down the program. We can set up 4 months, but only advertise one or two months at a time
It’s launching a new round for sure. Agree with your suggestion for that footnote.
Perhaps we say… will run for an expected 2 months, option to extend it. possibility of termating early.
Hey everyone, I remember @Cotabe mentioned a few weeks ago that our current GIVfarm rewards will be running out soon. With all of our cool new products I think we lost the thread on this one. FYI…
Most GIVfarms are set to end on August 19th
Now is the time to tackle the question of if we are extending GIVfarm rewards for any programs outside of GIVpower and the Angel Vault, which already have their rewards approved for the next 6 months.
The farms currently on the chopping block (when rewards end) are:
- GIV on Mainnet
- GIV/ETH on Balancer
- GIV/WETH on Sushiswap
- GIV/DAI on Uniswap v2
- GIV/ xDAI on Honeyswap
Here’s a quick refresher on the parameters from our last extension:
The first GIVfarm Extension happened on June 24th, 2022. The farm was extended a further 8 weeks with an additional 4 Million GIV allocated to farming rewards.
A flat 500,000 GIV is distributed weekly from June 24th until August 19th 2022
Here is a breakdown of the farms, the percentage allocated to each and the flat amount of GIV distributed weekly:
Farm % Allocated GIV Per Week GIV/DAI Uniswap V2 on Mainnet 23% 115,000 80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet 15% 75,000 GIV Staking on Mainnet 5% 25,000 50GIV/xDAI Honeyswap on xDai 25% 125,000 50GIV/WETH Sushiswap on xDai 17% 85,000 GIVgardens/staking on xDai 15% 75,000
I do acknowledge that all goods things must come to an end and we can look to the horizon for some initiatives that might be a great boon for our DAO owned liquidity such as:
I would like to propose however a 3 month extension for the following farms:
- GIV/ETH on Balancer
- GIV/WETH on Sushiswap
Extending them from August 19th for 12 weeks precisely, taking us to November 11th, 2022 and to distribute a total of 1,680,000 GIV in rewards. I would propose this weekly distribution:
|Farm||% Allocated||GIV Per Week|
|80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet||57%||80,000|
|50GIV/WETH Sushiswap on xDai||43%||60,000|
I think these ETH farms are a very important incentive to capture the potential upside of ETH and the inevitable growth of crypto and the Ethereum ecosystem. In particular the GIV/ETH Balancer pool will allow liquidity providers in the Angel Vault a place they can directly deposit their GIV on Mainnet that they receive from the rebalancing effects of the program.
Time is of the essence (again)!
- Looks good!
- No, I have more changes and/or concerns
I guess this depends on weather the GIVPower contracts are confirmed and ready by the 19th (@karmaticacid mentioned this in the governance call).
If this is not the case, we might consider extending the single asset staking until GIVPower is deployed?
Good point! We could, as a safety net allocate 4 weeks of rewards to the GIVgardens staking at current rates which is 75k GIV per week. This comes to 300k GIV and would last until September 16th.
We should also verify that in fact we can pause these rewards once GIVpower is launched. Maybe that’s a question for yourself or @amin ?
Hey @mitch - thank you so much for pushing this forward, you are our hero in so many ways! I have a few thoughts:
We have limited mainnet liquidity for GIV, and while the Angel Vault is great, it is a bit of a challenge in terms of onboarding new users. We should focus on mainnet DAO2DAO liquidity in the next months, but in the meantime, I agree with extending the balancer rewards. Although, I think we can be a little more conservative in the allocation.
We are maintaining around 200% APR for $100k of liquidiity right now on Balancer. So we’re paying about $16k for $100k of liquidity every 4 weeks. That is a lot of money for relatively low liquidity. I think we can get away with decreasing the weekly allocation - say perhaps by 25%… bringing the APR down to about 150% assuming people do not withdraw liquidity.
I don’t think think 200% vs. 150% APR on this pool will create a huge impact on the liquidity added and will save the DAO some GIV.
So I softly propose:
|Farm||GIV Per Week|
|80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet||60,000|
Open to counter-arguments.
- Right now, we have about $126k of liquidity on Sushiswap, likely from our pools.
- We have over $1M of liquidity on Honeyswap (not including out GIV/xDAI incentivized pool) - thanks to our various DAO2DAO liquidity partnerships.
- The biggest pool for GIV is GIV < > GNO w/ over $700k of liquidty on honeyswap.
- The biggest pool for GNO is GNO < > WETH w/ over $2M of liquidity on honeyswap
Your proposal is suggesting to put out about 60,000 GIV/week to maintain Sushiswap liquidity, which at current prices is about $12k every 4 weeks to maintain $126k of extra liquidity w/ WETH.
I just don’t think that it’s really necessary because of our huge liqudity with GNO & their pool with WETH - we could save the extra $36k here by ending this farm, at (imo) no huge disadvantage to the economy.
As I mentioned in the governance call, it is unfortunately unlikely that GIVpower staking will be ready to launch before August 19. We are in the process of reviewing the contracts, and it has become apparent that we need more time to ensure they are safe, tested & ready to go. We have allocated 7M GIV for GIVpower for 6 months… and I think we should reserve that until we actually launch it.
Therefore, I would like to additionally propose that we extend 100% GIV staking on Gnosis Chain for a maximum of 8 weeks (likely to terminate earlier with the launch of GIVpower) to ensure that GIVfarmers still have somewhere to part their harvested GIV rewards.
I am suggesting that we terminate mainnet GIV staking and implement our new “bridge your GIV to Gnosis Chain to stake them” user flow, and then people can start getting used to that flow even before GIVpower staking is out (ETA early September).
Since there is over 16M GIV being staked right now on Gnosis Chain, the APRs are relatively low (24% today). If we want to bring people over to gnosis to stake their GIV, and prevent them from dumping their harvested rewards, I think we should up this a little.
I am proposing some adjustment’s to Mitch’s suggestion above, as follows:
|Farm||GIV Per Week||Weeks to Run|
|80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet||60,000||12|
|100% GIV staking on Gnosis Chain||100,000||< 8|
And I think we should run the Balancer pool for 12 weeks (as originally proposed)… but will not run the GIV staking that long… an absolutely maximum of 8 weeks, to be replaced by GIVpower when it launches. So this would be a maximum total of 1,520,000 in GIV.
Note: I am also curious to know if anyone thinks we should temporarily also extend mainnet GIV staking. We could do 75,000/week for Gnosis staking + 25,000/week for mainnet staking & just stay the course without current allocations.
GIVpower will be an upgrade to our current Gnosis Chain 100% GIV staking contract… it will actually be the same contract, only better. It will be like a transformation of the GIV staking pool into the GIVpower pool (and people won’t even need to unstake / restake their GIV).
So we won’t need to pause the rewards, we will just need to adjust the amount of GIV per week going out. I don’t think this is much of a problem, but will let @amin confirm.
Cool thanks for the nice cost breakdown! I’m down to give a bit less on the Balancer Pool 60k per week is good.
I think we can also end GIV staking on mainnet and direct people to deposit their GIV into the Balancer Pool.
I would point out that in addition to ending the Sushiswap Pool we will also end the GIV/xDAI pool which holds around $64k in xDAI so ending both those farms with no other option besides GIVpower (or just the GIVgarden potentially) puts ~$190k of liquidity potentially on the chopping block.
If we lower weekly emissions of GIV/WETH on Sushiswap to 40k GIV a week that brings our USD value of emissions per 4 weeks to $8k, across a whole 3 month program this equals $24k.
I would also point out there is some external factors, particularly the upcoming merge, which by incentivizing ETH liquidity we could see some of the upside around the current hype.
I think these are important considerations…
As well as, how it can be convenient to direct people to single stacking so they are already there once that farm is upgraded to GIVpower.
Maybe we can harness the upside of the Merge while and softening the fall of the liquidity by starting from a 80,000 GIV per week and reduce 10,000 GIV every week. By mid October we could close that farm and the average cost would have been 40k GIV a week for 2 months, this equals $16k.
I am also concerned about ending the GIV stacking farm on mainnet on the first cycles of the Jagged Staircase while a lot of key people are preparing for burning man. So I would support this:
for the next 6 weeks while 2 cycles pass and all the team is in full swing or at least for 2 weeks to have more info on what happened after the rewards dumped.
We plan to end all these farms eventually anyways. The plan was to end them once we have achieved enough liquidity by other means. We have done that on Gnosis Chain.
It is totally unsustainable to be continually paying out huge amounts of GIV to sustain minor liquidity. If your assumption is that these LPs only hold GIV to get more GIV incentives - and that they will dump it all once the incentives stop - then it’s another reason to stop paying them more GIV. It hurts us more in the long run.
Anyway, I think that there is more of a balance to achieve, and a lot of things we can’t predict. ETH could go up, ETH could go down. Correlating to ETH could have advantages or disadvantages.
We are taking this GIV out of our liquidity multisig (the allocation that is there for liquidtity solutions). Would that GIV be better used in another DAO2DAO token swap? We need to consider the long term vs. the short term here, and I think ending all farms on Gnosis Chain (minus GIV staking → GIVpower) is in our long term best interest.
I hear you but I think it’s important to preserve the WETH/GIV Sushi pool, albeit at lower rates for a bit longer, it will be a softer fall than ending both the WETH/GIV and GIV/xDAI pools at once. I think the bitDAO proposal (potentially) and the Balancer Public Goods Pool will be a huge boon for DAO owned liquidity,
I would also mention that we did just allocate 6 Million in rewards for the Angel Vault for 6 months and another 7 Million for GIVpower for 6 months. So on one side you want to argue about providing enough rewards to make APRs interesting but then when we’re talking about extending existing farms I hear a completely different argument.
We also neglect to mention that by the benefit of the GIVstream the GIV rewards we pay out are not paid out all at once, but progressively over the next ~4 years, this softens the blow of our GIV emissions.
I like @Cotabe 's idea of starting at 80k and lowering it 10k per week, this would only extend it by 8 weeks instead of 12, and reducing $ value of emissions from $24k to $16k in regards to the GIV/WETH Sushi pool. I got some technical validation from @amin that our Unipool distributor (That gives out our farming rewards) runs in 2 week round so it would be rather a 20k decrease bi-weekly instead of 10k weekly.
I agree that we’ll need some GIV in GIV staking on Gnosis Chain to cover the gap from when it would normally end until we launch GIVpower in it’s place, however…
I’m not sold on keeping mainnet GIV staking around, I think it’s better to direct people to deposit their GIV into the GIV/ETH Balancer Pool. User’s can deposit GIV directly into this pool without having to acquire ETH. The balancer pool automatically rebalances, however it is made up 80% GIV so the rebalancing would have a lowered effect on the GIVeconomy.
So I would propose then, taking all of your suggestions into account:
|Farm||GIV per Week||Weeks to Run||Total in GIV|
|80GIV/ETH Balancer on Mainnet||60,000||12||720,000|
|GIV/WETH Sushiswap on Gnosis Chain||*40,000||8||320,000|
|100% GIV Staking on Gnosis Chain||100,000||< 8||**800,000|
*This is the average per week, as mentioned we will start at 80k, decreasing by 20k bi-weekly until we reach 0.
**This is the max amount, GIV staking on Gnosis Chain will run only until GIVpower launches, potentially taking as little as 400,000 GIV if we hope to launch by mid September.
JFYI - The total of these programs amounts to about half as much the rewards we allocated from the last GIVfarm extension (excluding Angel Vault and GIVpower), and combined would still distribute less rewards than the Angel Vault or GIVpower over a similar length of time.